This episode of the Pipeliners Podcast features Ed Landgraf of Texas 811, who shares his insights on marine pipeline sustainability and spill prevention. Ed discusses lessons learned from major underwater pipeline incidents, such as the Huntington Beach anchor drag and the Corpus Christi dredging accident, and highlights the importance of education, stakeholder engagement, and improved communication to mitigate risks. The conversation also touches on unique threats to underwater pipelines, including natural forces, construction activities, and the role of programs like MarineSafe811 in enhancing safety and awareness.

Marine Pipeline Sustainability and Spill Prevention Show Notes, Links, and Insider Terms

• Ed Landgraf is Chairman of the CAMO Pipeline Group and Director of MarineSafe811 and Marine Safety at Texas 811. Connect with Ed on LinkedIn.
  • CAMO (Coastal and Marine Operators): An industry organization that promotes safety, environmental stewardship, and collaboration among marine pipeline operators, dredging companies, and NGOs.
  • MarineSafe811: A program aimed at educating stakeholders about marine pipeline safety and preventing excavation-related damages in waterways.
  • Texas 811: A state-based notification system for underground utilities, where individuals and companies must “call before you dig” to locate pipelines and prevent damages during excavation.
• PHMSA (Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration) is responsible for providing pipeline safety oversight through regulatory rulemaking, NTSB recommendations, and other important functions to protect people and the environment through the safe transportation of energy and other hazardous materials.
• 811 (Contact Before You Dig) is the federally designated contact-before-you-dig number, designed to make the notification step of the safe excavation process as easy as possible. A person is required to contact 811 at least a few days before beginning any excavation or digging projects to allow time for locators to mark the approximate location of any buried infrastructure before excavation begins. Prior to the implementation of 811, people who dug had to know one call center’s 800 numbers, or notify utilities individually.
• Marine Pipeline Sustainability: Ensuring the long-term safety, integrity, and reliability of underwater pipelines while minimizing environmental impacts.
• NTSB (National Transportation Safety Board) is a U.S. government agency responsible for the safety of the nation’s major transportation systems: Aviation, Highway, Marine, Railroad, and Pipeline. The entity investigates incidents and accidents involving transportation and also makes recommendations for safety improvements.
• Huntington Beach anchor drag On October 1, 2021, San Pedro Bay Pipeline controllers received multiple leak detection alarms for their underwater pipeline off Huntington Beach, California. After several shutdowns and restarts, a crude oil release of approximately 588 barrels was confirmed on October 2, causing $160 million in damage; investigations revealed the pipeline had been damaged months earlier by anchor dragging from containerships MSC Danit and Beijing.
• Corpus Christi dredging accident On August 21, 2020, the dredge Waymon Boyd struck a submerged propane pipeline during dredging operations in Corpus Christi, Texas, causing an explosion and fire that resulted in five fatalities, six injuries, and the total loss of the vessel. The incident caused $9.48 million in vessel damages, $2.09 million in pipeline damages, and $120,000 in facility damage.
• Integrity Management is a comprehensive approach to ensuring the safe and reliable operation of pipelines, involving risk assessment, inspection, maintenance, and regulatory compliance.
• VTS (Vessel Traffic Service): A Coast Guard-operated system that monitors and manages vessel traffic to ensure maritime safety and avoid incidents with pipelines and other infrastructure.
• Anchor Drag: A phenomenon where an anchored vessel’s anchor dislodges and moves across the seabed, potentially damaging pipelines and other submerged infrastructure.
• Side Slopes: The natural or designed angled slopes created during excavation or dredging to prevent collapses, which can extend the excavation footprint and encroach on nearby pipelines.
• Dredge Cutter Head: A mechanical tool on dredging equipment used to excavate the seabed. It can pose a significant risk to pipelines if operated without proper coordination.
• Directional Drilling: A trenchless method of installing pipelines under waterways or difficult terrain, minimizing surface disruption and enhancing safety.
• Geohazard: Natural forces such as currents, hurricanes, or sediment shifts that can impact the position, stability, and integrity of underwater pipelines.
• Pipeline Cover Depth: The regulatory or required depth of earth or sediment covering a pipeline to protect it from external forces, vessels, or other activities.
• Mississippi River Pipeline Movement: A phenomenon where strong and continuous water currents cause lateral shifts in the position of pipelines over time.
• Forces of Nature Events: Natural occurrences, such as hurricanes or floods, that can affect the stability, cover, and integrity of marine pipelines.
• Port Expansion: Large-scale construction activities to deepen or widen ports to accommodate larger vessels, which can impact nearby pipelines and require close coordination.
• Pipeline Integrity: Maintaining the safety, reliability, and operational soundness of pipelines through inspections, mitigations, and maintenance.
• Asset Integrity: Ensuring physical infrastructure, like pipelines, remains structurally sound and functional over its lifecycle, preventing failures and leaks.
• Pipeline Right-of-Way: A designated corridor where pipelines are installed, requiring protection and monitoring against unauthorized excavation or construction.

Marine Pipeline Sustainability and Spill Prevention Full Episode Transcript

Russel Treat: Welcome to the “Pipeliners Podcast,” episode 367, sponsored by EnerSys Corporation, providers of POEMS, the Pipeline Operations Excellence Management System, operations and compliance software for the pipeline operator to address safety program management, control room management, and field operations. Find out more about POEMS at enersyscorp.com.

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Announcer: The Pipeliners Podcast, where professionals, Bubba geeks, and industry insiders share their knowledge and experience about technology, projects, and pipeline operations.

Now your host, Russel Treat.

Russel: Thanks for listening to the Pipelines Podcast. I appreciate you taking the time. To show the appreciation, we give away a customized YETI Tumbler to one listener every episode. This week, our winner is Danny Molyneux with Quest Integrity. Congratulations, Danny. Your YETI’s on its way. To learn how you can win this prize, sick around till the end of the episode.

This week we visit with Ed Landgraf of Texas 811 to talk about marine pipeline sustainability and spill prevention. Howdy, Ed, welcome to the Pipeliners Podcast.

Ed Landgraf: Hi, Russell, thanks for having me. I’m glad to be a part of your show here.

Russel: I’m glad to have you. As I often do, I would like for you to do a quick introduction. If you would, tell us a little bit about yourself, who you are, your background, and how you got involved with marine pipelines.

Ed: Thanks, Russell. Ed Landgraf. Originally, I’m from Oklahoma. Pretty much landlocked state, if you will. I went to work for the pipeline industry in Texas, and then I did some stints in New Mexico, Colorado, did some special assignments overseas. Then when the Gulf of Mexico started picking up, I was transferred down to the Gulf of Mexico. I worked for a major oil and gas company.

I retired early, but while I was there, I was in charge of investigating spills and releases in marine environments, so coming up with root cause analysis. Some of those led to third-party damages on pipelines. I started, in 2009, a industry organization called CAMO, Coastal and Marine Operators. We’ve now grown to 25 pipeline company members, 10 dredge and marine construction members, and we actually have some environmental NGOs, which is pretty unique.

I now work for Texas 811. I’ve also served as expert witness on marine pipeline accidents. It’s just been a whirlwind the last 34 years, believe it or not.

Russel: I’m right there with you. Right there with you, Ed. Interesting background. A guy from Oklahoma’s ends up working with offshore pipelines. Go figure, right?

Ed: Yeah.

Russel: That’s like Admiral Nimitz being from Fredericksburg, Texas. Go figure.

Ed: [laughs]

Russel: Never saw the ocean till he joined the Navy.

Ed: Hey, look, you give a different perspective that way. Sometimes you hit on something and you try to fill in and close some gaps.

Russel: Exactly. Let’s start out by talking a little bit about some recent underwater incidents. I know most people are probably familiar with the pipeline leak that occurred off of Huntington Beach in California. We now know what the root cause of that incident was. What do you think we learned about that incident with that Huntington Beach leak?

Ed: Very good question. Very good question. The Huntington Beach accident was a bit unique. It actually has a little bit of a COVID tie to it because of the amount of vessels that were being staged offshore out of the port of Los Angeles.

Those vessels being staged, trying to make it to port, we had labor shortages, etc., and there were all these vessels out there. I’m oversimplifying this to be brief, but some of these vessels ended up anchoring near a pipeline system.

As the windfield changed, those vessels changed direction. Mariners call it the hook, came dislodged from its original location, the anchor, and dragged the water bottom hitting the pipeline in a couple of different locations.

The interesting thing is the Coast Guard VTS, called the Vessel Traffic Service, actually saw the pipeline on their map and on their chart but just didn’t put two and two together that there’s a pipeline here and we got vessels that are anchored near it. The anchor drags actually came across the pipeline.

This is my unofficial take on it, although I did work a little bit with the NTSB on this case.

The big learning here really is about pipeline safety and awareness and understanding that there are other stakeholders in these marine environments that need to be contacted so they understand exactly what lies beneath them and then, once you understand what infrastructure is out there, what safety mitigations you need to put in place. That way, this doesn’t happen again.

In my world, education, engagement. I know we’re going to talk about the new MarineSafe811 program later. At the end of the day, that’s the gap I’m trying to close, is risk reduction, enhanced safety of the asset, asset integrity, and then educating our stakeholders so they know a little bit more about our business.

Russel: One of the things that’s interesting about the Huntington Beach incident is we had an unusual circumstance. We were anchoring in areas that we don’t normally anchor. We were anchoring in areas where the fact that there’s oil and gas infrastructure offshore is not broadly known.

Because the nature of the California coast is people don’t want to know about that stuff. It’s a little different in the Louisiana or Texas coast. We assume there’s pipelines there, just because of the nature of what’s there. The whole thing about education, particularly education of the Coast Guard as they’re directing the traffic where to anchor, that’s a big deal.

Ed: It is. It’s a very big deal. You know, Russel. One of the most tragic pipeline fatality accidents, on land or offshore, happened off the coast of the Beaumont/Port Arthur/Lake Charles area, back in 1989.

It was called the Northumberland vessel, that actually got hung up on a natural gas pipeline. Don’t quote me on this, but I believe there ended up being 11 fatalities. A very, very unfortunate incident. That was in the late ’80s.

To your point, trying to understand, get the word out, and let people have a greater appreciation of where some of this pipeline and where some of this infrastructure runs is still a challenge. That’s why I exist today, is I want to try to close that gap and have others help me get there. Being on a podcast like this, Russel, helps me fulfill one of my goals, so I appreciate it.

Russel: That’s why we’re here, to educate and inform pipeliners. This is important stuff. One of the things you talked about, there was another incident you mentioned as we were getting ready. It’s one I’m not nearly as familiar with as the Huntington Beach. There was a Corpus Christi anchor drag recently as well.

Ed: Another very unfortunate incident, lack of communication, project design, was in Corpus Christi, in the port. If I can digress for just a moment, many ports across the United States are under massive expansions, deepening, widening, Port of Houston, the Mississippi River. The East Coast ports specifically are making way for deeper, larger vessels, to facilitate world commerce.

A lot of this started a few years back with the expansion of the Panama and Suez Canal to be able to facilitate these larger vessels. The US is somewhat trying to keep up with that to make these ports of entry more accessible by bigger vessels. Some of this activity goes on to where they’re expanding berths. They’re expanding dock facilities, etc.

This was what was going on in Corpus Christi. This wasn’t a federal or Corps of Engineers job. It was a private company that hired a dredger to dredge out a berth to be able to build a deeper, wider, better dock facility.

The dredger, with the cutter head, actually hit a propane pipeline, ended up with a total of five fatalities. There was, I believe, three on scene. Another one died. Then another one died later after that in the hospital. A total of five fatalities. I was involved with the NTSB and the pipeline company on this investigation and the legalities around it.

The unfortunate thing there was there could have been a little bit better awareness by all parties. Most of the root cause centered around the dredge company and their dredge profile that they provided to the pipeline company.

No different than pipeline work on land. You don’t dig a box without having some kind of shoring or protection or whatever you’re going to do to prevent the side slopes from caving in. In a marine environment, you don’t have that ability to actually put the reinforced walls in the box that you’re digging within, if I’m making sense.

Russel: Actually, you do. You actually do. They do that all the time for bridge construction and that sort of thing. The thing about it is it’s extremely expensive, versus just digging.

Ed: Correct. You’ve got to imagine — for bridge construction, you’re right — in this area, you’re talking a huge area of a few hundred yards in one area that needs to be deepened and widened. At the end of the day, they didn’t account for the side slopes.

Once the dredger is on site, started building the dredge or dredging, excavating, let’s say, within the dredge template, they added the side slopes onsite. That was not given to the pipeline company. Therefore, it appeared that all excavation was going to be a safe distance away from the pipeline.

Once you add a three-to-one side slope onto that, now you’re extending your footprint another 150 feet to the right and to the left, north and south, whatever the case may be. Now you’re intruding. Your excavation is encroaching, let’s say, into the area where the pipeline was. That’s where that accident occurred.

Very unfortunate incident, very preventable. With education and communication, this thing could have quite possibly saved five lives, if we did a little bit better job on a couple of fronts there.

Russel: There’s clearly an engineering miss in the story you’re telling. There’s clearly an engineering miss. The other thing that you shared with me — I thought this was pretty fascinating — you shared with me an article. It’s on the KHOU 11 news site.

It’s talking about some pipeline incidents, but it mentions that ships can navigate up to 250 pipelines that run through the Houston Ship Channel. I know that at certain places in the ship channel, because I’ve walked those pipelines, there are some tunnels and places where there’s 15 or 20 pipelines in a single crossing.

There are a ton of pipelines that are in the ship channel. A lot of those are in areas that are, I want to say, vulnerable to changes in the underwater landscape because of ship traffic, dredging work, construction. There’s a lot of activity in the Houston Ship Channel. I’m sure that’s true for a lot of ports around the US.

How knowledgeable are those port operators and the shipping companies about pipelines in those areas?

Ed: I would say there is knowledge because there are so many lines. Of course, everyone can always enhance their knowledge and understand safety better and be able to empathize with the pipeline companies and what they have to go through and their requirements.

The pipeline companies, I would say that there’s a greater lack of the education on the pipeline company side about the shipping industry and the maritime industry that probably the pipeline folks who run their right-of-way department and get these notifications need to understand.

Need to understand the things like what is a swing anchor, what is a cutter head, what is a dredge ladder, what is this equipment that is marine excavation that is operating around your line.

We have an opportunity here. What’s the old adage? When you point one finger one way, there’s three pointing back at you. There is some opportunity for the pipeline industry to learn more about the marine transportation and marine construction and dredging industry.

To that point, through our program, in last December, we did a dredge tour in the Houston Ship Channel. It was very beneficial. Don’t forget to let me tell you about a National Pipeline task Force that is a joint effort between the pipeline industry and the dredge and marine construction industry, brought on much after or spawned from the Corpus Christi accident, but I digress.

I want to go back to your original question, just to simply answer by saying there is awareness of pipelines, but pipelines aren’t always 100 feet below the mud line. Sometimes, a mariner, they think that pipelines are that deep. At the end of the day, that’s why there’s a lot of pipeline removal and lowering work going on, along with other utilities. It’s not just pipeline. There are electric, fiber optic, other types of lines across these as well.

There’s a lot of work specifically in the pipeline industry to relocate amid these lines.

Russel: Well, couple of comments first. First thing is I think most pipeliners, if they do any work around dig sites, are fairly familiar with rules around trenching, and shoring, and slopes, and soil sampling, and all that kind of stuff.

What’s interesting to me in this conversation is you have all those same issues with underwater pipelines, but I would bet they’re not as well understood in the pipelining industry. I think the mechanics are probably somewhat different than the mechanics would be for an above-ground or above-waterline dig.

Ed: Over the past 20 years, as you know, directional drilling and boring has made leaps and bounds. That technology is there. It’s much more affordable. There’s a lot of people doing it.

That has been, in my opinion, especially in marine environments, one of the biggest advances, let’s say in the last 30 years, is the ability to directionally drill large, bore large diameter lines across significantly the large waterway. Credit to the industry for that, for sure.

Russel: There’s a lot of safety benefit and operations efficiency gained out all that. What are some of the other threats? We’ve talked about anchor drags, we’ve talked about dredging operations, and construction operations. What are some of the other things that are unique threats related to underwater pipelines?

Ed: Specifically, forces of nature event, like hurricanes. There is a a requirement for some pipelines, specifically liquid pipelines, after a hurricane event, that you go out and inspect the lines, make sure that they’re still covered to the correct depths.

We have seen, and I’ve seen recently in the Mississippi River, the pipelines move in these waterways. The Mississippi River, for example, is always flowing north to south.

Those pipelines, although they were put in straight, they commonly, when we get them surveyed, have a bend to the south because of the water flow north to south over years. There is just dealing with the, what do you call it, geohazard around…

Russel: That’s more of a lateral force issue. What you’re driving at is current.

Ed: Correct.

Russel: Current is a big deal. Keeping a pipeline in place in the midst of a big current is a non-trivial thing. It’s a non-trivial thing.

Ed: Some other things, we mentioned anchor drags, like Huntington Beach. There are things where people are going out and getting core samples from a waterway.

Maybe this is a good time to at least broach the topic about the whole 811 call before you dig, although that’s so simple. There are mariners that don’t understand that this does apply in waterways.

Understanding that if you’re doing any type of excavation, or movement, or removal of earth along a water bottom, it just makes sense to make that 811 call notification. It’s one of the easiest things that you can do to help keep yourself safe.

There’s a myriad of different types of threats from people driving pilings, people putting in dock facilities, or wharfs on land in highly populated industrial areas. There’s just not a lot of right of way left. Sometimes it’s easier to go through a marine environment go underneath a lake bay, bayou river than it is to go around and go through a community.

Russel: That’s absolutely right. For people who want to learn more and dig deep into this issue, what are some of the resources that are out there? You mentioned the National Pipeline Task Force. What are they doing in the marine space?

Ed: Let me digress again for one second. When we formed CAMO in 2009, Coastal Marine Operators, we went back. We were one pipeline company. We said, “Are we the only ones that’s having marine construction and dredge damage type stuff?” We polled the industry. They said, “Nope. This company is having the same type of issue. This company is having the same.”

That was the foundation of why we started Coastal Marine Operators. Since then, right after, there was another accident in Texas just a year and a half before Corpus Christi.

We had formed a National Pipeline Task Force. This is a joint effort between the dredge and marine construction industry and the pipeline industry to come out with a set of best practices and training to be able to alleviate and mitigate risk and enhance safety.

Russel, I have three goals. They’re pretty simple. A, number one, is save lives and protect from injuries. Number two is protect from the environment. Number three is protect infrastructure. It’s pretty much that simple.

We’ve adopted that on the pipeline task force. We have worked together to come out with updated best practices that we have now put in a new online training module. Matter of fact, it just went live last week. We had an existing module, but we updated it. Then we’re also updating a set of best practices.

The marine industry, dredge and construction, said, “We don’t know this CAMO. We don’t know these pipeline organizations, but we’ve all heard of 811. Can we relate 811 to this?” We went to the Common Ground Alliance, CGA, and got permission to use the 811 logo.

Last year, we launched the MarineSafe811 program. That’s the external-facing advertising, I guess, catch you in line with the 811 pipeline safety initiative. Our MarineSafe811 website is up and running. Everything, if you’ve heard a CAMO before, we are still up and running. It’s the behind-the-scenes, more technical part of the effort.

Like I say, MarineSafe811, we don’t sell anything. We are member-funded. Thanks to our members who help us with that. We’ve also received PHMSA grants along the way to help us out. Online training, best practices. There’s also an FAQ in there, FAQ section that’s very helpful.

Probably most important for pipeliners, there is a marine construction and dredging 101 document in there that talks about all of those different types of dredges, types of marine construction equipment, and types of activity that they perform. That is a very useful document that is on our website as well.

A lot of information out there. I’m a pretty transparent person. Russel, before we end the call in a little while, I’ll give out my contact information. Happy to help anyone out.

Russel: Cool. The other thing I don’t think we did talk about is we haven’t talked about the Common Ground Alliance. Common Ground Alliance, I’ve had them on the podcast multiple times. I try to bring them on for 811 Day every year as an annual reminder to all of us about the importance of 811.

For most of us, we think about 811 as dirt. We don’t think of it as underwater. You mentioned in one of our previous conversations that the CGA has a marine best practice around 811. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Ed: Yes, sir, Russel. I’m glad you asked. I co-chair a CGA Marine Best Practice Committee. This is an effort to get our marine practices into the CGA manual. We’re currently revising some small sections that talk about marine locates. That actually was driven by another accident and an NTSB recommendation to CGA. This was probably in the mid-2000s.

Our goal is to have another chapter in the CGA Best Practice manual only for marine and underwater excavation. Again, this is going to apply not only to pipelines but other type of fiber optic, water, sewer, electric-type utilities. We’re working on that. It’s a long haul. If anyone wants to join that best practice team, please let me know.

Concurrently, we have our National Pipeline Task Force Best Practices that will be updated and coming out. The latest version is scheduled to come out before the end of January. A lot of moving parts, but we have a lot of good momentum.

Look, it’s all good. Again, just trying to save lives, protect the environment, protect infrastructure. That’s our three goals. We’re making some really great strides in that area. We always like other people’s opinions to help shape what we do. I’m really proud of the support that folks have given us over the years.

Russel: As you’re talking, I’m just flying around on your website and downloading some of the resources. There’s a lot of really good information here.

Ed: We’re going through our website. There’s some things that we’ll be updating, but there’s some videos, the online training, the dredge and marine construction 101, which is great for pipeliners, under education or resources tab. Another high-profile event was this Baltimore bridge accident, Russel, if you remember that.

Russel: I don’t know anybody forgets that. I don’t know how many times I watched that on the little YouTube.

Ed: A lot of people don’t know that there was an active 24-inch natural gas line underneath the bow of the Dali. It hit the bridge. The weight of the bridge is forcing the bow down into the mud line and got pretty darn close to that 24-inch natural gas line.

Russel: Oh my goodness.

Ed: If you would have had a rupture…

Russel: That could have been a whole different level of event.

Ed: Oh my gosh. You’ve got a vessel that can’t move. You’ve got a pipeline that is potentially releasing a gas cloud. You’ve got people on board. Not a good combination. I will say one thing. In these investigations that we’ve done, in these fatalities, the industry, the pipeline industry and the marine industry, has, on average, about one fatality per year, across the United States.

That’s one of our staggering statistics that we try to remind people. Obviously, like everyone else, we want the goal zero. Over the past 20 years, our statistic has shown, on average, right around one fatality per year occurs.

So being vigilant. The other thing that I want to bring up is things that happen in a marine or underwater environment are, in my opinion…I call them the 10 times. They’re 10 times more impactful. There’s 10 times more downtime.

If it’s a spill, to clean up is 10 times worse. The safety hazard are 10 times as much. Really, more importantly, the emergency response in a marine area, on a river, a waterway, is 10 times longer.

It’s some challenges out there. The longer I’ve been in this, I really can empathize with the mariners who are working around those live pipelines. We should do everything that we can to help them do their jobs more safe.

It’s incumbent upon us as an industry to take that upon ourselves, to be able to outreach to those mariners and try to empathize with what they do and then, on the flip side, educate them on what the pipeline companies do.

Russel: That’s absolutely true. Look, Ed. I want to say thank you for coming on board and sharing all this information. I know it’s a lot for people to digest. What we’ll do, like we always do, we’ll create…On the Pipeline Podcast Network website, there’ll be a web page for this episode. We’ll put a transcript on here. We’ll build in links for all these resources that Ed’s been mentioning.

Ed will also be set up as a guest. It’ll be a page for him on the website. Probably the easiest way to find him or find information is just go to marinesafe811.org and peruse the website. It’s all right there.

Ed: It’s all right there. Reach out to me directly if you ever have questions. I’m an open book, happy to support. ed@texas811.org will also get me. Russel, I can’t thank you enough for getting me on this podcast and helping me spread this message. Hopefully, I’ve given a few tips and hints that will help folks in their daily job.

Please go to our website, marinesafe811.org. Take any of that information. We sell nothing. It’s all free. Use it to be more safe in your own jobs.

Russel: I will also say that the Marine Construction & Dredging 101 is cool because it’s got pictures of all the different dredges. That is just the kind of geeky stuff that I would enjoy.

Ed: [laughs]

Russel: That’s awesome. Look, thanks for being on. We’d love to have you back maybe a year or so from now. We’ll just remind everybody what’s going on, and we’d give everybody an update about state of marine pipeline safety.

Ed: Thank you, Russel. It’s been a great time spending a few minutes on this podcast with you.

Russel: I hope you enjoyed this week’s episode of the Pipeliners Podcast and our conversation with Ed. Just a reminder before you go, you should register to win our Pipeliners Podcast YETI tumbler. Simply visit pipelinepodcastnetwork.com/win and enter yourself in the drawing.

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Russel: If you have ideas, questions, or topics you’d be interested in, please let me know on the Contact Us page at pipelinepodcastnetwork.com or reach out to me on LinkedIn.

Thanks for listening. I’ll talk to you next week.

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